Graphics card upgrade - advice wanted.

[AndyG]

I'm a bit out of touch on hardware these days, mainly due to lack of games I'm interested in playing. Other than hardware failures, I've not upgraded for a good 5 years.

However, GTR Evolution, and the promised Codemasters Grand Prix game to come next year has persuaded me it's time to move on/up.

Current system is AMD Athlon 64 3200+, GeForce 7300GT, iiyama B2403WS monitor 1920*1200 res. Ubuntu 8.04 by default, XP for games: GTR-EVO, Grand Prix 4, Falcon 4, and other stuff so old it's too embarrassing to mention.

I'm looking at either a Radeon HD4870 (probably a 1GB version) or a GeForce GTX260. As far as I can see there's not a lot to choose between them. It looks as though the ATI suport for Linux is very good, and I'm using EnvyNG to configure my current card and that's always been reasonably happy.

So: any reason to go with one over the other? Any particular pitfalls to watch for?

[robsmith32]

Ok, curious to why you looking at the 260 instead of 275, as the 275 still comes in a hair under the radeon 4870 in cost?

bfg 275 gtx is 199.00 at microcenter right now.. EVGA gtx 275 is 199.00 after the mail-in rebate.
whereas the 4870 is a little more than that.. I understand benchmarks having the 4870 a slight advantage, but in actual games the 275 is faster for now.

the buying of a new graphics card every year or 2 to keep up with games is why I went with console.. heck, the PS3 is cheaper than the 2 top dog gaming video cards.

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by robsmith32

Ok, curious to why you looking at the 260 instead of 275, as the 275 still comes in a hair under the radeon 4870 in cost?

bfg 275 gtx is 199.00 at microcenter right now.. EVGA gtx 275 is 199.00 after the mail-in rebate.
whereas the 4870 is a little more than that.. I understand benchmarks having the 4870 a slight advantage, but in actual games the 275 is faster for now.

the buying of a new graphics card every year or 2 to keep up with games is why I went with console.. heck, the PS3 is cheaper than the 2 top dog gaming video cards.

There's still a premium on the GTX275 cards here. I'm looking at around £110 for an HD4870 and £120 for a GTX260. A GTX275 is £160 and up, which is beyond my budget of £100


Re: the console debate, £20 a year is a reasonable hardware maintenance budget. I just don't play enough games to make it worthwhile. The games I do play aren't popular on consoles anyway - I'm more interested in sims than arcade-style stuff.. I know there are plenty of racing games, for example, but my kind of game rewards, even requires, understanding of the technical side of race car setup (sad, I know). GTR Evo uses industry-standard telemetry analysis software (MoTeC). I don't know if there are realistic flight sims available for consoles - say, the equivalent of MS Flight Simulator or Falcon 4.0, but I suspect not, due to lack of a market.

[Denzien]

Try researching here

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by Denzien

Try researching here

Funnily enough that very article was my first port of call. However, it doesn't look like there's much between them at all, which is why I wondered if anyone had any extra clues/experiences. I originally put it on the Linux board, expecting that Linux drivers might be the difference-maker, but I figured it's more visible here, and it's really a general question anyway.

It's looking like stock levels might be the deciding factor - my favourite supplier seems be selling the Radeons faster than they can restock. I suppose that's a point in favour, if they have any left.

[buzd]

I've always liked nVidia's stuff. Not for any particular reason other than I've never had much trouble with it.

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

Funnily enough that very article was my first port of call. However, it doesn't look like there's much between them at all, which is why I wondered if anyone had any extra clues/experiences. I originally put it on the Linux board, expecting that Linux drivers might be the difference-maker, but I figured it's more visible here, and it's really a general question anyway.

It's looking like stock levels might be the deciding factor - my favourite supplier seems be selling the Radeons faster than they can restock. I suppose that's a point in favour, if they have any left.

Good job, you've already exceeded my expectations

I seem to recall seeing an article that compared and contrasted the image quality between nVidia and ATI cards, but I can't seem to find it, or I would post a link.


It's my perception that nVidia cards rely more on power and brute strength to muscle its way to high frame rates, where ATI uses more of a shotgun approach of lightweight processors. One might come to this conclusion by considering that although their cards are similar in performance, the top tier GeForces have 240 stream processors to ATI's top tier 800 stream processors. (480 and 1600 in the dual GPU cards, respectively)

I personally favor ATI's approach, but honestly it really depends on which cards the games you want to play favor. Also, you may want to consider the maker of the northbridge and if you want to do SLI or CrossFire later. I would go with ATI on a board with an AMD chipset, and nVidia on an nForce board. Obviously.



While you're at it though...

Some games are less video card dependent and are more CPU dependent. Yours is out of date and, unfortunately, is on a platform that is out of date. I mean really - only one core? :e-nerd:

You can fix that part of your system (including ram if necessary) for about $300. Give or take depending on how far you go.

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by Denzien

Good job, you've already exceeded my expectations

I seem to recall seeing an article that compared and contrasted the image quality between nVidia and ATI cards, but I can't seem to find it, or I would post a link.


It's my perception that nVidia cards rely more on power and brute strength to muscle its way to high frame rates, where ATI uses more of a shotgun approach of lightweight processors. One might come to this conclusion by considering that although their cards are similar in performance, the top tier GeForces have 240 stream processors to ATI's top tier 800 stream processors. (480 and 1600 in the dual GPU cards, respectively)

I personally favor ATI's approach, but honestly it really depends on which cards the games you want to play favor. Also, you may want to consider the maker of the northbridge and if you want to do SLI or CrossFire later. I would go with ATI on a board with an AMD chipset, and nVidia on an nForce board. Obviously.

Interesting point on the architectures - I hadn't thought about that, maybe I should.

I've not found anything as far as suitability for my particular games, but I guess only GTR Evo and next years GP release would be close to cutting edge. Traditionally I always upgraded when a new version of Grand Prix came out, but that's a long time ago now. Clearly I'm long overdue, and that might be a factor (starting with Robs suggestion of a GTX275 series)

which brings us to ...

While you're at it though...

Some games are less video card dependent and are more CPU dependent. Yours is out of date and, unfortunately, is on a platform that is out of date. I mean really - only one core? :e-nerd:

You can fix that part of your system (including ram if necessary) for about $300. Give or take depending on how far you go.

Yeah, I know, I know, but it did the job. It's just starting to creak a bit now. My other benchmark was always work box << home box. That went out of the window last Christmas when the office machine got replaced. Given that the other half is now on her second laptop since my last upgrade, I'm overdue. Expect another thread in a few months (CPU/MoBo this time).

I tend to stay a few steps behind the edge, even when I'm doing a big rebuild - better bang per buck, but I would think £200-£250 would do the trick.

That's given me plenty to think about - cheers.

[buzd]

Originally Posted by buzd

I've always liked nVidia's stuff. Not for any particular reason other than I've never had much trouble with it.

Quoting myself, mostly in reference to Denzien's comment re: architectures. I've also always been an intel guy, so my nVidia allegience makes sense.

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by buzd

Quoting myself, mostly in reference to Denzien's comment re: architectures. I've also always been an intel guy, so my nVidia allegience makes sense.

And while I have anything but disparaging remarks about Intel (at least since they dumped RDRAM and the Pentium 4 line), I've always been an AMD guy for some reason.


Although it must also be noted that before AMD purchased ATI, AMD and nVidia were common bedfellows. Also, nVidia's nForce platform had a long, hard fight to make inroads into supporting Intel's processors, since Intel itself makes quality chipsets for motherboard manufacturers. IIRC

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

I tend to stay a few steps behind the edge, even when I'm doing a big rebuild - better bang per buck, but I would think £200-£250 would do the trick.

Exactly. For that matter, Core 2 Duos should be an amazing value about now...unfortunately, Intel always changes sockets when they go to a new generation of CPU where, recently, AMD has made newer CPUs backward compatible with older sockets. But then again, if you're like me and wait 4-6 years between overhauls, that probably doesn't even matter anyway.


Anyway, if you are thinking about overhauling your entire system, I would put the graphics debate on hold until you can decide what platform you want to buy into, so you can make a reasonable attempt to match the parts.


By the way, don't forget to consider your hard drives, as they often represent the largest performance bottleneck.

[robsmith32]

Originally Posted by Denzien

Exactly. For that matter, Core 2 Duos should be an amazing value about now...unfortunately, Intel always changes sockets when they go to a new generation of CPU where, recently, AMD has made newer CPUs backward compatible with older sockets. But then again, if you're like me and wait 4-6 years between overhauls, that probably doesn't even matter anyway.


Anyway, if you are thinking about overhauling your entire system, I would put the graphics debate on hold until you can decide what platform you want to buy into, so you can make a reasonable attempt to match the parts.


By the way, don't forget to consider your hard drives, as they often represent the largest performance bottleneck.

uh.. that thing about AMD making them backwards compat.. well that's sort of... AM2+ might be am3 compat.. but not necessarilly..
it depends.
oh, that's right "backwards compat" you can go backwords for sure, from am3 to an am2 cpu.. but who in their right mind would want to do that?

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by robsmith32

uh.. that thing about AMD making them backwards compat.. well that's sort of... AM2+ might be am3 compat.. but not necessarilly..
it depends.
oh, that's right "backwards compat" you can go backwords for sure, from am3 to an am2 cpu.. but who in their right mind would want to do that?

If you own an AM2 motherboard and an AM2 processor, you can replace the AM2 processor with an AM2+ or AM3 processor without having to simultaneously purchase a new motherboard and/or RAM to support the new CPU. AM2 processors will not work in an AM3 motherboard.

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by Denzien

Exactly. For that matter, Core 2 Duos should be an amazing value about now...unfortunately, Intel always changes sockets when they go to a new generation of CPU where, recently, AMD has made newer CPUs backward compatible with older sockets. But then again, if you're like me and wait 4-6 years between overhauls, that probably doesn't even matter anyway.


Anyway, if you are thinking about overhauling your entire system, I would put the graphics debate on hold until you can decide what platform you want to buy into, so you can make a reasonable attempt to match the parts.


By the way, don't forget to consider your hard drives, as they often represent the largest performance bottleneck.

OK, after the feedback thus far, and much head scratching, the inevitable conclusion: it's 'build a new system' time chez AndyG. Current thinking is

AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition
Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P MoBo
XFX HD4890 1GB GDDR5 GPU
4GB DDR3 1600 RAM
1TB Seagate 7200 SATA II HDD

I'll add a SATA DVD-RW (no interest in Blu-ray) and my two existing IDE drives for semi-archive data storage, expecting that they'll eventually be replaced. That should leave a crossfire rig, more RAM, maybe even a faster AM3 CPU (yeah, right!) as upgrade paths.

Any thoughts before I get out the plastic?

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

OK, after the feedback thus far, and much head scratching, the inevitable conclusion: it's 'build a new system' time chez AndyG. Current thinking is

AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition
Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P MoBo
XFX HD4890 1GB GDDR5 GPU
4GB DDR3 1600 RAM
1TB Seagate 7200 SATA II HDD

I'll add a SATA DVD-RW (no interest in Blu-ray) and my two existing IDE drives for semi-archive data storage, expecting that they'll eventually be replaced. That should leave a crossfire rig, more RAM, maybe even a faster AM3 CPU (yeah, right!) as upgrade paths.

Any thoughts before I get out the plastic?

That looks awesome to me. I've read good things about those "Ultra Durable" Gigabyte boards.

How's your power supply situation looking? Notice that the motherboard requires a 24-pin (up from 20-pins) and an 8-pin power connector (up from 4).

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by Denzien

That looks awesome to me. I've read good things about those "Ultra Durable" Gigabyte boards.

How's your power supply situation looking? Notice that the motherboard requires a 24-pin (up from 20-pins) and an 8-pin power connector (up from 4).

The PSU is the best bit of my current system! An almost new Antec NeoHE 550W. Should be up to the job, but might need upgrading if I ever get a second graphics card.

Many thanks for all the comments - all being well I'll be putting it together at the weekend.

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

The PSU is the best bit of my current system! An almost new Antec NeoHE 550W. Should be up to the job, but might need upgrading if I ever get a second graphics card.

Many thanks for all the comments - all being well I'll be putting it together at the weekend.

Good deal I think you've hit the sweet spot in the price/performance ratio. Should last you another 4-6 years.

[AndyG]

Update: it's up and running, and very sweetly too, with only a couple of glitches en route.


The first was the store being out of the original Radeon card, so I had to step up to the XXX version, which has a higher clock speed


The second, installing XP on a SATA drive with no floppy was an entertaining experience.

First attempt, booting from install DVD failed (in both SATA and IDE modes).

Second attempt, boot into old window set up and install from there, appeared to work, but on "rebooting" it became clear the new install wouldn't boot. Booting into my old Linux setup allowed me to check out the new drive, which looked to have a clean windows install on it, but no dice.

A custom boot disk built using nLite and including a *full* set of drivers for the motherboard did the trick - the first attempt at this method failed with new (to me) sort of BSOD, because the driver for who-knows-what was missing, despite the fact that this didn't stop attempt #2. I'd just added the SATA driver. On the second go I just included every driver I could find on the install disk, and that did it.


The manufacturer's AMD Radeon Linux video drivers are a one-line install and come with a nice little setup/tweak utility, which I'll have to play with when I have some time.

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

Update: it's up and running, and very sweetly too, with only a couple of glitches en route.


The first was the store being out of the original Radeon card, so I had to step up to the XXX version, which has a higher clock speed


The second, installing XP on a SATA drive with no floppy was an entertaining experience.

First attempt, booting from install DVD failed (in both SATA and IDE modes).

Second attempt, boot into old window set up and install from there, appeared to work, but on "rebooting" it became clear the new install wouldn't boot. Booting into my old Linux setup allowed me to check out the new drive, which looked to have a clean windows install on it, but no dice.

A custom boot disk built using nLite and including a *full* set of drivers for the motherboard did the trick - the first attempt at this method failed with new (to me) sort of BSOD, because the driver for who-knows-what was missing, despite the fact that this didn't stop attempt #2. I'd just added the SATA driver. On the second go I just included every driver I could find on the install disk, and that did it.


The manufacturer's AMD Radeon Linux video drivers are a one-line install and come with a nice little setup/tweak utility, which I'll have to play with when I have some time.

Very awesome; I think you're going to like your machine a lot. Thanks for updating after it was built. I like nLite a lot because I can automate the install so I don't have to sit through all those pesky dialogs Then I usually make a bootable USB key with the installation on it so I don't have to bother with burning CDs or DVDs (Vista).

Oh, and I can remove superfluous drivers and disable certain services by default. But that's beside the point.


Now only one update to go: gaming performance!

[AndyG]

Originally Posted by Denzien

Very awesome; I think you're going to like your machine a lot. Thanks for updating after it was built. I like nLite a lot because I can automate the install so I don't have to sit through all those pesky dialogs Then I usually make a bootable USB key with the installation on it so I don't have to bother with burning CDs or DVDs (Vista).

Oh, and I can remove superfluous drivers and disable certain services by default. But that's beside the point.


Now only one update to go: gaming performance!

I was very much in JFDI mode with nlite but it did look to be quite a piece of kit. I don't intend doing too many reinstalls this time round though, so I shouldn't need to get into it.

There's definitely some tweaking to be done - I think GP4's default installation is slower than the tuned version on the old machine. GTR Evo is on a different planet though - and from what I read there's plenty of scope there for improving performance. It'll be interesting to see how well new hardware and old software can get along.

I just can't find any upgrades for my reflexes, which is where the real bottleneck lies now.

[Denzien]

Originally Posted by AndyG

I just can't find any upgrades for my reflexes, which is where the real bottleneck lies now.

Yeah really

For me it's my nerves. I like shooters...in college I loved them. Now, I can't usually take much more than an hour before I reach my stress threshold and have to walk away.

Originally Posted by AndyG

GTR Evo is on a different planet though - and from what I read there's plenty of scope there for improving performance. It'll be interesting to see how well new hardware and old software can get along.

Oh...and you like racing games, huh? In 5 years you should blow your new computer budget on this.






Your wife can kill me later